Mr Rowlands: Yes.

Q82 Mr Khan: Realistic?

Mr Rowlands: I think sensible and challenging, but realistic enough to be -----

Q83 Mr Khan: Good. I have a number of questions, so perhaps we could keep it short! I have ten minutes. Do you think that the Mayor of London setting a target of a 40% increase in bus travel over a shorter period was sensible?

Mr Rowlands: Yes.

Q84 Mr Khan: Realistic?

Mr Rowlands: Yes.

Q85 Mr Khan: Has he saved your bacon because of the increase he has had in London?

Mr Rowlands: He would have saved our bacon had we not changed the target for the regional content, yes.

Q86 Mr Khan: This is a difficult question to answer, so if it is impossible just say so. Doing international comparisons in relation to Western Europe over the last few decades, we have seen a decline in bus and light rail use. What are comparable countries over the last two or three decades?

Mr Rowlands: It is quite difficult to answer. This is a bit of a sweeping generalisation, but if you look at the history of bus use in this country over the last 20 or 30 years or even more, there is something different about this country. We have had lower levels of car ownership than our near continental neighbours, but we have used our cars more intensively. If you look at Italy for example, you will find much higher levels of bus usage, including by social class. There is a difference.

Q87 Mr Khan: Do you have any idea what has happened to bus use in Scotland and Wales in recent years?

Mr Rowlands: Bus usage in Scotland has historically declined, as it did in England. In the last year or two it has just picked up.

Q88 Mr Khan: In both Wales and Scotland?

Mr Rowlands: Both Wales and Scotland.

Q89 Mr Khan: You mentioned in the ding-dong with Austin Mitchell that for decades it has been going down. Is there not one exception in the 1980s in London, when bus use went up?

Mr Rowlands: Bus use, if I remember rightly, after deregulation in London initially went down in the eighties and then began to pick up in the nineties. In the latter part of the nineties, before the Mayor came along, bus usage was growing year on year by about a third of the rate it did after the Mayor ------

Q90 Mr Khan: During the eighties as well the Fares Fair policy, when there was a leader of the GLC - I forget his name - was there not an increase in bus use?

Mr Rowlands: I was talking about the sweep of the eighties.

Q91 Mr Khan: Do you think there is a link between devolved government and the powers that, for example, the Mayor has and the clarity that TfL has - autonomy, and increase bus usage?

Mr Rowlands: I think there may be a link, if only in the sense that it may make the delivery chain less complex and easier; but that is only a piece of process; it also depends on ambition, intent, and what you what to do with that -----

Q92 Mr Khan: The reason I ask is because the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly, the fantastic expert Mayor for London - all they have in common is autonomy to -----

Mr Rowlands: No, they have also got higher subsidy levels for their buses. Remember that the Welsh introduced Wales-wide -----

Q93 Mr Khan: A decision they took themselves?

Mr Rowlands: Indeed.

Q94 Mr Khan: You support my argument then because they decided, because they were autonomous, to do that - yes?

Mr Rowlands: They were certainly free to take that decision.

Q95 Mr Khan: Do you accept the recommendations made in the NAO report on pages 19 and 20? Presumably you have read the report? Are you happy with them?

Mr Rowlands: Yes. There is one I certainly want to ponder on.

Q96 Mr Khan: Which one is that?

Mr Rowlands: It is in F, talking about making information more available at a local level. Remember, I said earlier that we cannot just over stuff we have got because we are caught by the Statistics Trade Act 1947, so we have to find another route through.

Q97 Mr Khan: Before getting to my main question, there is a question that is concerning me. If you look at figure 10, which is "Quality of service measures" for some reason unbeknown to me, and I am sure other members of the Committee, who I am sure have thousands of disabled constituents, why does that not measure extend to disabled passengers?

Mr Rowlands: I honestly do not know why it does not measure the experience.

Q98 Mr Khan: Do you think it should? You talked about Routemaster, which -----

Mr Rowlands: I am quite happy to reflect on that. What I will offer you is that if you look at our delivery report, in terms of access to buses the target was to have 50% of full-size buses low floor by 2010 because it helps not just the disabled but also the elderly. We already have 44% so we are very close to getting to the 2010 value for that half by 2006-ish.

Q99 Mr Khan: You will reflect on that?

Mr Rowlands: I am very happy to.

Q100 Mr Khan: You will, I am sure, have heard of the disabled people in wheelchairs who are at bus stops and bus drivers pass them and others who get on a bus and have very uncomfortable journeys. I could go on.

Mr Rowlands: I am well aware of it.

Q101 Mr Khan: And, of course, where they are changing the law as well. Can I ask you one more question on the fantastic success story of London. What assurance do you have that the growth in bus use in London will be sustained to enable them to properly save your bacon by 2010?

Mr Rowlands: We have got an agreed delivery plan with TfL. We are going to align that with the 2006 Business Plan. I said earlier that we are expecting to hit the 12% target and that means we are expecting London to continue to deliver. Working with TfL, we have no reason to believe that their contributions will not be forthcoming.

Q102 Mr Khan: One of the things where the Mayor actually failed in London was to increase fares on buses, and you have still got the congestion charge, obviously. They have been quite open about it, they need the money to have better standard buses et cetera. How far do you think the fare rises are a risk outside of London, vis-á-vis the increase in buses you said you are required to meet?

Mr Rowlands: To get back to all of that elasticity, they are clearly a risk. The extent to which there are fare rises, some of that will be alleviated by the new concessionary fares policy from April for a group of people who are significant bus users, the elderly. The extent to which it continues to be a risk may partly reflect decisions to be taken about subsidy level, whether it is at a local level or even national.

Q103 Mr Khan: Are you going to have control over whether somebody decides to have a bus increase or not?

Mr Rowlands: We do not control bus fares, that is correct.

Q104 Mr Khan: In the plan we are also told there will be a £6 billon investment in our bus services to complement the public investment. How much has been invested so far?

Mr Rowlands: The figure in the plan was £6 billion for private investment in local transport, £5 billion of that was buses. Since the plan came out, 38,000 new buses and coaches have been registered in this country. Mr Linnard, what does a bus cost?

Mr Linnard: Between £50,000 and £100,000.

Mr Rowlands: In round figures that is somewhere between £2 and £4 billion worth of investment towards the £5 billion that they do not manage, depending on the cost of the bus. There is no reason to believe that the private sector is not putting in what we said.

Q105 Mr Khan: You referred to some of the reasons why there has been such a huge success story in London, but workplace parking levies and the congestion charge were some of the reasons which made public transport more attractive and nice buses, increased security, CCTVs et cetera. Why have such schemes not been introduced elsewhere? Do not say because we have a brilliant Mayor.

Mr Rowlands: No. It is clearly quite a tricky issue outside of London. Nottingham is still looking at a workplace parking levy arrangement, but there has not been the appetite for road pricing otherwise, certainly on the lines of congestion charging. We are now beginning to talk to some local authorities in terms of using the new TIF.

Q106 Mr Khan: Why is that? Why have they not introduced them?

Mr Rowlands: I honestly cannot give you a rounded answer as to the behaviour of a whole lot of local authorities right across the land. It may reflect the complexity of other urban centres. Remember London is a very small, tight central congestion charge. It may reflect what you want to call the courage/ ambition of whoever is running the place.